Napalm Death became Grindcore innovators with their debut album Scum in the ’80s. Some twenty-five years later they are about to release their newest album, Utilitarian, on February 28 in the States. Powerline spoke to frontman Mark “Barney” Greenway (far right in photo) about the album Utilitarian and, of course, other current events.

Powerline: This is going to be fifteen albums, not counting Leaders Not Followers.
Barney: I stopped counting, really, to be honest. I just let other people count. I tend not to focus on those boring stats. It’s a Napalm album. It doesn’t reinvent the wheel and it would be quiet stupid of me to say that it does. But it does many different things along the way as well as retaining the core of the sound. I mean, basically, a lot of the influences that you wouldn’t necessarily always associate with metal or punk or hardcore, such as those post-punk, really quite depressive, pop influences that Napalm has. At one end of things, Swans in New York but also bands like Joy Division, perhaps The Birthday Party, Sonic Youth, My Bloody Valentine, all that kind of stuff. That kind of comes quite to the fore on this album. And although we’ve done some of that over the past few years, we’ve never really done it in the context of playing fast. We’ve always kind of kept it to the slower stuff because it kind of feels like its natural mode. This time I decided to mix it up with the more faster, breakneck kind of stuff. And it works. I was unsure whether it would fit when we were doing it. But after I’d done a couple of things and tried them out it really seemed to work. That’s pretty much what people are gonna get. It’s hard to really sort of put it into words. I think it’s really for other people to really kind of judge than me, to be honest with you.

It is kind of an experiential thing. You have to experience it yourself.
Barney: Yeah, and everything’s always subjective anyway in music, so …

The last album [Time Waits for No Slave in 2009] was leaked onto the internet. How do you prevent that sort of thing from happening? Does it bother you when that happens?
Barney: Yes it was, and does it bother me? Not in the long term, I have to say. But I think what people sometimes don’t understand is that we’re not Metallica, we’re not Green Day or anything close to it in terms of the size of band. We’re a small – to medium-sized band, really, in the grand scheme of things. And those initial sales in the first couple of weeks — first couple of months even — that’s our strongest time, really. And what people got to understand is that the money of those early sales, is not profit for us. It’s basically paying back the record label, to allow them to recoup what they were allowed to spend on us and to allow them to promote us a little bit more. Which is why we still got a record label because without their assistance, to be honest, we’d be screwed on quite a few things. I mean, really, I’m not sort of overplaying that. But in the long run, I don’t mind so much. Am I gonna turn around and tell a kid like a year after release — who lives somewhere and he’s got limited means, very limited means — that he can’t get hold of a Napalm song or a Napalm album in ways that are in his own limited resources. Of course I’m not. That goes against the whole sort of way I think as a person, and the way that Napalm’s kind of operated. Plus, at the end of the day, bands really have to adapt. There was a revolution in music a few years ago in terms of the breaking up of the monopolization of major labels in music, and that needed to happen, with the advent of the internet and all the other things. And as bands, you need to roll with that to a certain extent. Yes, of course, you still have things that essentially need to happen but if you don’t adapt and roll with it then you are going to find yourself sort of really tearing your hair out. Because kids — well, not just kids but people in general — have dictated the terms now with the freedom of the internet. And I think that’s a good thing. Definitely.

It’s always that struggle with commerce and art, isn’t it? It’s been there since the beginning of art itself.
Barney: The thing is, let’s not forget that when people talk to us about a “career,” we never really look at it like that, you know. “Career” would suggest something that you would hang onto by the skin of the balls just to take a salary home. And that’s not the case for us. It was never the case. First and foremost, how are we going to express ourselves creatively. And, of course, that’s born out by some of the things we just won’t do as a band on an ethos level. So it’s not actually always about the commerce but just like a person who spends most of the year going out to work in whatever they do, there has to be a certain amount of earning that we need to take home as people. You wouldn’t tell a person who worked in anything that they could be deprived of their wages or whatever, and neither should somebody in a band. The point is, we don’t ask for the world, we survive on an existence kind of salary. And that’s obviously something we need to obtain. You wouldn’t deny it to anybody else so I think musicians shouldn’t be denied of that either.

I think The black and white aspect of Utilitarian’s cover art (at left) captures what it’s trying to convey. It seems to me at least, depicting this sort of  oppression from whether you want to call it the Rich White Man or the corporations, from the advancement of the masses.
Barney: Well, let me explain a little bit more about it. The title of the album itself, Utilitarian … that guy who is on the floor in the center, he’s kind of the would-be utilitarian, if you like. And the people who are around him are certain depictions — but they’re not exact depictions. In other words, they actually represent the very ethical struggles that the guy on the floor is having. They’re not necessarly actual people who are kicking him. They are representations of the ethical struggles that he has and the pictures around him are basically his thoughts, and what radiate out from that. So it’s a little more nuanced, if you know what I mean, than just literally four rich-looking guys kicking another guy. It wasn’t actually meant to be that way, even though it looks that way. So it does require a little bit of explanation. But it is what it is I suppose.

… a certain morality aspect to it?
Barney: Well, no, it doesn’t actually, because I don’t actually believe in morality. You know, I do things that I consider to be good things in my life, but it doesn’t mean I’m a moral person. Morality in itself is a complete misnomer because it makes the assumption that you or what you do in your life or what you seek to be the moral high ground is completely different from somebody else. And actually as much as morality is held up in high regard, it’s actually a very destructive force as well, because people who are very moral can sometimes use it as a stick to beat other people with. And sometimes they take it to the extent, of course, of committed violence. A lot of religious violence, whether it’s someone blowing up a doctor in an abortion clinic or it’s somebody anywhere around the world that commits acts of violence in the name of religion. That is based on a moral judgment and a moral protectionism. And so morality is something I definitely don’t associate myself with. That’s not to say, of course, that I don’t do what I consider to be good things. But I think that’s a little bit different than morality.

How would you define it then? Because you make some wonderful statements. One, which I thought was wonderfully phrased, stated that [we should have a] “human entitlement to walk the earth unprovoked.” I thought that that was such a great way to phrase something about humanity and human rights.
Barney: I think it’s just a basic fundamental thing that we have forgotten. Because I think the hierarchical structure of society has just cut some people loose. The one thing that I always found quite disturbing is when you get reports in the media about illegal immigrant this and illegal immigrant that and a lot of finger-pointing and a lot of real nasty comments and stuff … really quite inhumane, if you want to use that term. What a sad state we’re in. Some people are privileged enough to be born in some parts of the world to the point where they are such protectionists that they will not share it with other people or with those they consider to be foreigners. That, to me, is part of the evidence of a loss of humanity. And I don’t think that comes under morality. It’s a completely separate thing.

Generally, I believe as people we all originate from Africa and actually everything radiated out from there. People actually walked across land masses that eventually formed continents. So if you take that as the basis of heritage, if you like, for want of a better word, than everybody has the right to go wherever they want. I always believed very much in a no borders kind of thing. I know people might consider that a bit naive but I believe as a person the ultimate human right is for me to be able to walk wherever I want on this earth without obstruction. Nobody’s got the right to stop me.

And that’s a wonderful thought but can that be achieved in this world we live in?
Barney: You don’t always express your wishes knowing that an absolute solution will arrive. You have to strive for things. And that is a difficult struggle, to know that things seem such a way off. But if you don’t strive for them, then you’ll never get anywhere. So, yeah, I totally take your point, what you’re saying here, but if we don’t hope and we don’t push on, then what’s ever gonna change? And let’s be brutally honest about this. At some point things are gonna have to change, because the level of inequality in the world right now … you don’t have to be a social scientist to know that it’s getting wider and wider and wider, and, as I said, that is unsustainable. There has to be a change somewhere down the line or things are just gonna collapse completely. Whether it will be my lifetime or three or four lifetimes, who’s to say. There has to be a start somewhere. So there you go.

Your lyrics make people think. It’s so much more refreshing than lyrics about sex, fantasy, gore, satan … you know, all that stuff feels so dumbed down after awhile.
Barney: There are some things I like and some things I don’t. What I try not to do a lot of the time — and this is kind of how I find as a person — I try not to make too many judgments on other bands. Even if I find something that’s not to my taste. There’s room for everything basically. I don’t think we can completely go in one direction in life. I think life would quite tedious then.

And that’s a healthy attitude.
Barney: Yeah, I think so. I mean this is the thing. There are many things that I believe in that I think about quite deeply. And I find myself even contradicting myself at points. But that’s just life. People are so scared sometimes in life to naturally contradict themselves. And you shouldn’t be. It’s a human trait. It’s what everybody does basically.

In British rock, if you read the journalism, the bands are always talking trash about each another. It seems refreshing that you have a healthy attitude by not talking trash and accepting of someone else’s art form. So be it.
Barney: Sometimes people try to manuever us into that position, where we are ragging on other people. But I’m not gonna do that. I don’t want to do that right now. It serves no purpose to me. I’m not motivated to do that.

It only serves a purpose to the press.
Barney: Yeah, fine, but there are lots of things in music that I like or dislike but I don’t see the sense in talking shit about people. I mean, yes, someone may ask if I like or don’t like something. That’s fine. That’s something different. If people take that to heart then they take that to heart. In the past, some bands have said some stuff about us and I shot them down in response … it’s not worth it. I rather stay silent about it. And it’s not because I’m scared to speak up for myself. I don’t see that it’s constructive.

As a political writer what do you think of all the weirdness going on in America at the moment? You have the Tea Party on one side and Occupy Wall Street on the other, and sometimes it seems like they are fighting for the same thing but won’t admit it.
Barney: See, the Tea Party bothers me greatly. Because I think they are incompetant for one thing. And I think they are quite idiotic in a lot of ways. And I got to be really honest about that. I mean, you might expect me to say that because I am in many ways like a person from the Left. But the one thing I really don’t get about the Tea Party, they have such a groundswell of support from people who are low-income people or low-income earners, you could say, and yet these people don’t understand that what they are actually trying to justify, prop up or make excuses for are corporations, who are the ones that are reaming them left, right and center. They are reaming the financial system. They are actually making things worse and in turn because when the system is rebalanced it’s always the poor who suffer. You know, those on low-incomes. I mean, they’re talking about ‘Don’t tax our wealth.’ ‘Don’t tax our earnings.’ Well, hang on a minute. What are you saying? Are you just gonna let corporations and businesses have a free reign so that they just speculate and accumalate and then just toss you to scraps? Are you talking about the scrapping of employment laws where you literally have no rights as a low-income person? I mean, c’mon, you know. Get with it.

It’s like they’ve been duped.
Barney: Yeah, duped. That’s exactly the point. And the point that it’s based on this kind of patriotic, nationalistic thing… see, patriotism and nationalism, to me, are just nonsensical. I have to be honest. You know, they really are, because a flag is a symbol. It doesn’t mean anything. Tradition is in the past. You have to move forward. And people are so sensitive about that stuff. I just don’t get it. I’m not patriotic at all because I know it does me no good in my life. It serves no purpose whatsoever. It really doesn’t. I just don’t understand it. I mean, all those placards [in the Tea Pary movement] as well, that made me laugh. Some of them were deeply, deeply misguided. The whole thing about socialism and communism and stuff like that. People aren’t understanding what it’s about. I’m critical of all goverments but Obama’s health plan is to generally equalize the health system to where everybody gets access to treatment and takes away this monopolization — and we were talking about monopolization earlier on — this monopoloization of health companies. I have many friends in the States who have to have health insurance, and the things these health companies do to try and get out of providing treatment — basic f**king treatment for people — it’s scandalous. So, therefore, you have to address that. You have to equalize the health system to where everybody has the right to dignity and healthcare. For me, a free appointed source.

A red flag should go up when they didn’t complain of millions of dollars of their tax-paying money went into Iraq but, all of a sudden, when it’s supposed to go into healthcare — to actually help them — then they’re complaining! It doesn’t make any sense.
Barney: I just don’t get it. I just don’t get that mindset. These healthcare companies need to be brought into law. They have to. And if it’s governemnt that has to do that. Again, I’m very critical of governmental systems in general. I don’t trust them but unfortunately we are stuck with the things that we have right now. If you can deal with it in justice with private companies on a certain level and it has to be the goverment that does it, then so be it.

The citizens aren’t powerful enough sometimes.
Barney: Yeah, exactly. These health comapnies have to be regulated. They need to be told what they can and cannot do.

A line once used in the song “Cock Rock Alienation”— “making idols out of assholes’ —  a lot of Americans do that.
Barney: I wouldn’t want to make that statement that it’s just Americans that do it. It’s a worldwide thing in my opinion. I don’t want to look down on Americans or America. And I certainly wouldn’t want anyone to lead me in that direction. It’s not just one country. We all sort of idolize people sometimes and I’ve never been comfortable with it, with that kind of idolatry.

As an animals rights activist, do you think there is any hope for America? Eating meat seems to be ingrained in the communal psyche.
Barney: Well, I mean, these are things that take time, you know. Culturally, the world is generally stuck in a food chain, the food chain that means people eat meat. Obviously, from my end of things, I would rather people take a step back and take a wider view on that. Because I believe humanity can be measured to an extent on how we treat all sentient beings, so, obviously, I have a certain opinion on that. But I do also appreciate at the same time that it’s so ingrained that these things take time. I mean, there is no question that animal welfare is more in the public consciousness now than it ever was. So that is a good thing and we have to be thankful for those small steps — whether you consider them small steps or medium steps. It’s a progressive thing, really. See, you can’t beat people with a stick about animal welfare. You can’t be too aggressive. You have to be very careful about stuff like that. The deciding result is that animals have much better consideration in this world.

Things have progressed. I remember when The Smiths came out with Meat Is Murder, people were like ‘What the hell is that?’ Now it would be taken as less of a shocking comment.
Barney: There are a couple of important things that would be better dealt with first, then we move on to the meat issue. Testing for cosmetics which in my mind should be completely outlawed. It’s completely unnecessary. And number two, it’s medical research testing, another thing where there are so many alternatives now. And I think that that should also be completely outlawed. The meat thing is another thing because it is subsistence for a lot of people. That is a bit more tricky. Of course, for me, I would like it if people moved to an alternative way of diet. But that’s a more difficult one to broach at this point.

That’s a great point. I used to be a vegetarian and one of the reasons I began eating meat again is affordability and convenience.
Barney: But the affordability thing is a bit of misnomer because you can actually live on a very simple, very healthy, vegetarian diet for the same price as any other diet. I mean, really, you can. I know. I’ve done it. I’ve been doing it for the last twenty-something years. And I’ve been through some f**king hard times and I still managed to always maintain it. But I take the point about convenience but you can get vegetables, and soy protein or other forms of protein anywhere almost. In the States, too. So really it is accessible and it is doable. It all depends how you apply yourself, I suppose. I know myself — and I’m not trying to paint myself as some sort of martyr when I say this — but I know that I will always be vegetarian because of my strength of feeling towards animal welfare. I could not turn back to when I was ten years old. I’ve been vegetarian since I’ve been 14 years old. Again, I’m not trying to myself on a pedestal. I’m not trying to paint myself as a martyr but I just know that it’s so ingrained in me now, to be vegetarian, and the health benefits as well, there’s no reason for me to go back [to eating meat]. I won’t. I couldn’t. I just couldn’t do it.

So the band has quite a few festivals coming up this year.
Barney: We got a few here and there. Quite a bit more than we usually do. I will say that Napalm sometimes is — because of the way we operate and stuff because we’re kind of a contrary band sometimes (laughs) — people kind of treat us like we’re almost a bad smell. We don’t go away, you know (laughs). Honestly, we are kind of regarded like that sometimes, so we don’t always get things other bands do. But then the way I look at it is we make our bed and lie in it sort of thing.

There have always been game changers in musical genres. There’s been Kill ‘em All and Appetite For Destruction and Nevermind. You can argue that [Napalm's debut album] Scum was a game changer.
Barney: Well, it was. It was a milestone for me — a musical milestone. I mean, stepping outside of the band, just as a music fan. To me, it was a milestone in heavy music but I think it was a milestone in music more generally. I don’t think it would be overstating it if I say that. I think it really changed a lot of people’s perception in how uncompromising music can be. It was a pivotal point, I think, personally. But again, there were other bands doing it before Napalm. Napalm was a sum of the components.

It’s true, the band did always have influences that shaped it. Besides musical influences it seems like it had other influences, whether it be philosophy or politics or any of that. Do you have any contemporary philosophers or political essayists that influence you now?
Barney: Not really. You know, I mean I like philosophy but …

You are an atheist. Do you like contemporary atheist thinkers like, say, Richard Dawkins?
Barney: The thing with atheism … the one thing it’s not meant to be, in my opinion, is another religious movement. You can put a label on it but what it is essentially is free thought. Atheism is free thought. It is actually defying the conventions of religion in its many forms. So, I think it’s kind of counterproductive to just become another religion, if you know what I mean. So, yes, of course, I find great validity in things that people like —well, just to use the obvious person, although there are many — some of the things that Richard Dawkins says in some of his books. I don’t idolize him because it’s not necessary for me to idolize him. But I think what he does do is he compends certain thoughts that a lot of us have in really understandable forms. Atheism surely cannot have a system of idolatry because then it defeats the object of what it’s meant to be in the first place. Atheism for me is about logical free thought.

And religion itself … I have no problem with people believing in Gods, if that’s what they choose to believe and living their lives. But you know what? Keep it in your personal life. I don’t want to see it in schools. I don’t want to see it in governments. I don’t want to see it in anything outside of a personal space. In other words, dictating to the lives of not only other religious people but to the rest of us. I don’t want to see it. And it really drives me mad when it does come into play and when it starts to encroach on people’s lives like that.

And the irony is that that’s when it is probably at its most beautiful, when it is personal.
Barney: Well, yeah, exactly. There are many great aspects of religion. The Bible itself is a fantastic book. It’s a great storybook but that’s all it is. It was written by people, who made up these great stories, and then after the fact said to themselves, well, let’s put this out there as a yardstick for people’s lives. That’s when it changed from something that was actually quite positive and had a lot of genuine value into something that was quite destructive in a lot of ways.

What I like about Richard Dawkins books is that you don’t have to take it as doctrine. You can disagree with him. Whereas other philosophies you have to take the hard line and agree with everything.
Barney: I put my thoughts out there as a member of Napalm Death. What I don’t want people to do is agree with me all of the time. That’s not the object of the exercise. Yes, it is the the object of the exercise to put my thoughts out there and for people to say ‘Look, I don’t have to be afraid to say this stuff.’ There are things that a lot of people won’t tackle but I’m not afraid to put my cards on the table. That’s not to say that I’m trying to drum it in to everybody. One thing that I do is, I would expect of people to open their eyes and think for themselves because too many people don’t do that in this world. And on that basis, you betray yourself as a human being, the very trait you are born with, the ability to dissect and judge and analyze things for your self  and come to your own conclusions. I think we certainly lack it sometimes. And that’s what I’m trying to do, you know.

And when all is said and done, that may be the message that represents Napalm Death in the end. To think for yourself.
Barney: Well, it does. I mean, that’s exactly what it is. Think for yourself.

That’s quite an accomplishment.
Barney: Well, I hope so. I guess it is. I’m just trying to put stuff out there. Stuff that isn’t always put out there. Stuff, like I said, that some people are a bit nervous talking about.